I don’t fully comprehend all the points here. I don’t understand blockchain currencies for instance and never will, but I think a revolution in mass consciousness is what will make lasting change. The means of doing that exists as you point out, but it’s been fully colonized by the rightists and neofascists. Anyway lots of great ideas here.
Interesting. Back in the 60s and 70s, there were many worthy projects and organizations that explored alternatives to mainstream societal structures. Think Ivan Illich or Thompson’s Lindisfarne. But that work was not sustained for reasons not entirely clear to me and it's unfortunate that it was more or less forgotten by my generation. Your ideas about private property are quite interesting. Freud said “Civilization is repression” and that reminded me of the work of zoologist Desmond Morris. In "The Human Zoo" he compared many of the traits of animals who were caged in zoos to the behaviors of people in large cities.
Having worked for corporations most of my life, I agree with you that they're organized for effectiveness. In fact, since I’ve also spent considerable time (15 years) volunteering for various nonprofit organizations, I’ve been struck by the stark contrast in effectiveness between corporate and nonprofit modalities. On a related note, I don’t know if you watched the recent Open Debate in NYC where Curtis Yarvin makes his case that the US should have a CEO dictator (sound familiar?). I actually learned about Yarvin here so thanks for the heads up. A true Vancian technocrat and a scary guy.
Yarvin praises corporate culture as highly effective. And in this narrow sense, he’s right. Corporations do require a high degree of cooperation among workers and move effectively toward goals. But on the other hand, values conflicts are not tolerated. I also agree that it may take the clearing effects of collapse to enable ideas such as these to be implemented. My main quibble is with the notion that AI could be used to implement a society such as you describe because, as long as technocracy exists, the ideas you suggest would not and could not work. Technocracy is basically a control grid that filters information and power to a smaller elite. AI is now foundational for rapidly advancing technocracy, transhumanism, and digital surveillance. I don’t see any way of getting around this. And Putin and Xi have now declared their dystopian support for transhumanism -- a truly alarming development.
I have been thinking this through a little further. First of all, I want to be very clear that I think the corporate model is currently broken as is the economic system that supports it. The signs are everywhere of private equity ruining what were formally good companies. Panera is a good example. So I need to re-think the corporate aspects and re-read. And I have to wonder what the difference is between having a bad CEO (essential for the corporate model) and a bad president.
Secondly, while I very much commend the effort to design the ideal society, I think such things may occur beyond our rational understanding. After all, technocracy represents an attempt to design society at the very core even though it’s a badly misguided one. I rather suspect that in a dark age, such as the Kali Yuga, when knowledge is corrupted beyond repair, we are simply at the mercy of larger forces that only spiritual adepts truly understand. And even while they may understand them, they are just as powerless as anyone else to change things. All of that said (hope my swings of thought are not too hard to follow) thinking about what would make a good society is a great exercise in values clarification.
I agree entirely. Yesterday you laid out a dystopian vision of a totally unhinged uber capitalist system with all power concentrated at the top, and run by sociopaths like Yarvin and Thiel. In my worst nightmares, this could happen. And in my heart I believe that this is not inevitable. Why? Because tens of millions of people worldwide have a more humane and sustainable dream for the future. I think this is a time when a clash of visions is on the horizon. And our job, our only job, really, is to do everything possible to make this vision rise like a phoenix from the ashes. Because there will be ashes, and suffering, but as long as there's life, there's hope. Who, really, would care to be alive if the malefactors proposing a global greedfest are in charge. Some things are worth fighting, even dying for. It would be great if we can figure out how to derail these guys and their unsustainable, crazy plans sooner rather than later. As I said before, time to get cracking. It must have felt good to lay out your vision of hope, Daniel. Holding this up is a necessary antidote to despair.
Well said. Sometimes humanity's pushback against repression is just a matter of the right timing. And that cannot be forced in any way. So how do we balance Taoist non-action and patience with the urgent need to stop this runaway freight train?
Ah, me, Tom. I sure wish I had a complete answer to that. One left brained thing I've read about is to make an effort to identify whatever are the tripwires for you personally, and make a plan for what to do (and not do) at that time. But this doesn't suit me completely, because I think we also need to incorporate some right brained elements, like dreams (the 'big ones,' which don't feel personal and hit you like a Mack Truck, and can be prophetic--I had a couple of these quite awhile back while living in a country with an autocratic government. I saw the autocrat and his family turning into butterflies and flying away. A year or so later they did--fly away, anyway.) and odd synchronicities. These are events that might seem trivial but have a 'numinous' sense to them, for no good 'reason.' Carl Jung made much of them, and as I read the Taoist sages, they do too, although in a less Germanic and more floating world way. As I sense things now, for what it's worth, we are standing on a fulcrum of sorts, and the time for large actions seems not to have arrived just yet. But clouds are gathering on the horizon. One further thing, which I'm trying to sit with is, as my mentor reminds me, "You don't get to choose when a total change arrives (called Fana in the Sufi lexicon)." This will be something like death, although not always literally. Preparing for it involves a great deal of setting aside any notions that you know for sure what's good and what's bad. I'm not totally there yet.
Good thoughts. And of course even some mystics adept at prophecy have often got the timing of events wrong. In some cases way wrong. It's not and never will be an exact science. And at the end of the day, the universe we're in is (to use your term) numinous and mysterious. And so for now we wait and prepare....
Even science is not an exact science! If you ever want your mind blown, delve into quantum physics. At the quantum level nothing works as we might imagine it 'should.' Time, for example, has shown itself to be nonlinear. But let's face it, as I learned during an unhappy year spend in and MBA program, you never have enough hard data to be entirely comfortable making executive decisions. We do our best with what we have, or choose the coward's path. Personally, I would never have survived the vicissitudes of my life unless I sometimes took the advice of the old zen parable of the strawberry and the hungry tiger. Look it up if you want a good laugh at yourself. Hey, BTW, this is fun, but don't feel obliged to respond if this is starting to feel burdensome. Peace.
The opposite of burdensome actually. I’m totally with you about science. Good science, real science is exploratory and willing to accept a number of hypotheses at the same time. In fact, you could argue that exploring in that fashion is actually the job of science. And yes the data illusion. I see this often in news articles that throw out statistics like so much popcorn. Never mind asking the hard questions. Where does the data come from? What are the possible biases involved? What’s the margin of error? The numbers don’t lie we’re constantly told but they do and they can mislead us into a false sense of certainty. The precision they claim to have is arguably a good part of the epistemological crisis underway. As to quantum mechanics, I actually have jumped into this pool over the last year or so. Somehow I never quite got it before but after reading Barbara Hand Clow, it came into focus in a very interesting way in terms of spiritual practice. Now, more recently, I'm reading Ellen McCusick’s masterwork on biofield tuning and sound healing which draws heavily on quantum theory.
Just ordered the books, thanks. I recently applied for and was accepted into a two year program that leans heavily on alchemical iand quantum insights among other things. It starts this Friday. I'm psyched. Thank god for Zoom. I was involved for awhile with hands on healing and Reiki, but didn't think it was something I wanted to make central in my practice. The Moghul Sufi order I study with makes much of sound/vibratory healing. So I guess I'm coming back around to stuff I used to suspect as being 'woo-woo.' Even though palable things happened when I put my hands into someone's energy field. This actually frightened me a little. My self concept, like maybe all of my other concepts, could use some renovation.
Creating change of this magnitude in our economic systems would require a quantum shift in mass consciousness, and we're not there yet. In the meantime, I believe our capitalist system can work, better serving the whole of society and not just a select few - with the proper controls. If corporations and oligarchs, for example, were required to pay just 15% more taxes, and that 15% subsidized social programs, the social impact would be enormous. If healthcare was more tightly regulated and aligned more with underlying costs than the current price gouging, the impact would also be significant. These are just two of many examples. There is nothing revolutionary or groundbreaking about this, but it has yet to be executed. This, of course, presupposes that we have a government that truly represents the betterment of the whole and doesn't succumb to the Big Money.
These are useful proposals. Daniel, but I think it's wholesomely human to desire property to own, beginning with clothing and shelter. Earnings from endeavor should also belong to the endeavorer. I favor a minimum endowment at birth of shelter, sustenance, health care, education, and income. You're going to have folks up in arms, and not just the feudalists, if you try to deny property rights across the board.
Three cheers for this!
I don’t fully comprehend all the points here. I don’t understand blockchain currencies for instance and never will, but I think a revolution in mass consciousness is what will make lasting change. The means of doing that exists as you point out, but it’s been fully colonized by the rightists and neofascists. Anyway lots of great ideas here.
Interesting. Back in the 60s and 70s, there were many worthy projects and organizations that explored alternatives to mainstream societal structures. Think Ivan Illich or Thompson’s Lindisfarne. But that work was not sustained for reasons not entirely clear to me and it's unfortunate that it was more or less forgotten by my generation. Your ideas about private property are quite interesting. Freud said “Civilization is repression” and that reminded me of the work of zoologist Desmond Morris. In "The Human Zoo" he compared many of the traits of animals who were caged in zoos to the behaviors of people in large cities.
Having worked for corporations most of my life, I agree with you that they're organized for effectiveness. In fact, since I’ve also spent considerable time (15 years) volunteering for various nonprofit organizations, I’ve been struck by the stark contrast in effectiveness between corporate and nonprofit modalities. On a related note, I don’t know if you watched the recent Open Debate in NYC where Curtis Yarvin makes his case that the US should have a CEO dictator (sound familiar?). I actually learned about Yarvin here so thanks for the heads up. A true Vancian technocrat and a scary guy.
Yarvin praises corporate culture as highly effective. And in this narrow sense, he’s right. Corporations do require a high degree of cooperation among workers and move effectively toward goals. But on the other hand, values conflicts are not tolerated. I also agree that it may take the clearing effects of collapse to enable ideas such as these to be implemented. My main quibble is with the notion that AI could be used to implement a society such as you describe because, as long as technocracy exists, the ideas you suggest would not and could not work. Technocracy is basically a control grid that filters information and power to a smaller elite. AI is now foundational for rapidly advancing technocracy, transhumanism, and digital surveillance. I don’t see any way of getting around this. And Putin and Xi have now declared their dystopian support for transhumanism -- a truly alarming development.
I have been thinking this through a little further. First of all, I want to be very clear that I think the corporate model is currently broken as is the economic system that supports it. The signs are everywhere of private equity ruining what were formally good companies. Panera is a good example. So I need to re-think the corporate aspects and re-read. And I have to wonder what the difference is between having a bad CEO (essential for the corporate model) and a bad president.
Secondly, while I very much commend the effort to design the ideal society, I think such things may occur beyond our rational understanding. After all, technocracy represents an attempt to design society at the very core even though it’s a badly misguided one. I rather suspect that in a dark age, such as the Kali Yuga, when knowledge is corrupted beyond repair, we are simply at the mercy of larger forces that only spiritual adepts truly understand. And even while they may understand them, they are just as powerless as anyone else to change things. All of that said (hope my swings of thought are not too hard to follow) thinking about what would make a good society is a great exercise in values clarification.
I agree entirely. Yesterday you laid out a dystopian vision of a totally unhinged uber capitalist system with all power concentrated at the top, and run by sociopaths like Yarvin and Thiel. In my worst nightmares, this could happen. And in my heart I believe that this is not inevitable. Why? Because tens of millions of people worldwide have a more humane and sustainable dream for the future. I think this is a time when a clash of visions is on the horizon. And our job, our only job, really, is to do everything possible to make this vision rise like a phoenix from the ashes. Because there will be ashes, and suffering, but as long as there's life, there's hope. Who, really, would care to be alive if the malefactors proposing a global greedfest are in charge. Some things are worth fighting, even dying for. It would be great if we can figure out how to derail these guys and their unsustainable, crazy plans sooner rather than later. As I said before, time to get cracking. It must have felt good to lay out your vision of hope, Daniel. Holding this up is a necessary antidote to despair.
Well said. Sometimes humanity's pushback against repression is just a matter of the right timing. And that cannot be forced in any way. So how do we balance Taoist non-action and patience with the urgent need to stop this runaway freight train?
Ah, me, Tom. I sure wish I had a complete answer to that. One left brained thing I've read about is to make an effort to identify whatever are the tripwires for you personally, and make a plan for what to do (and not do) at that time. But this doesn't suit me completely, because I think we also need to incorporate some right brained elements, like dreams (the 'big ones,' which don't feel personal and hit you like a Mack Truck, and can be prophetic--I had a couple of these quite awhile back while living in a country with an autocratic government. I saw the autocrat and his family turning into butterflies and flying away. A year or so later they did--fly away, anyway.) and odd synchronicities. These are events that might seem trivial but have a 'numinous' sense to them, for no good 'reason.' Carl Jung made much of them, and as I read the Taoist sages, they do too, although in a less Germanic and more floating world way. As I sense things now, for what it's worth, we are standing on a fulcrum of sorts, and the time for large actions seems not to have arrived just yet. But clouds are gathering on the horizon. One further thing, which I'm trying to sit with is, as my mentor reminds me, "You don't get to choose when a total change arrives (called Fana in the Sufi lexicon)." This will be something like death, although not always literally. Preparing for it involves a great deal of setting aside any notions that you know for sure what's good and what's bad. I'm not totally there yet.
Good thoughts. And of course even some mystics adept at prophecy have often got the timing of events wrong. In some cases way wrong. It's not and never will be an exact science. And at the end of the day, the universe we're in is (to use your term) numinous and mysterious. And so for now we wait and prepare....
Even science is not an exact science! If you ever want your mind blown, delve into quantum physics. At the quantum level nothing works as we might imagine it 'should.' Time, for example, has shown itself to be nonlinear. But let's face it, as I learned during an unhappy year spend in and MBA program, you never have enough hard data to be entirely comfortable making executive decisions. We do our best with what we have, or choose the coward's path. Personally, I would never have survived the vicissitudes of my life unless I sometimes took the advice of the old zen parable of the strawberry and the hungry tiger. Look it up if you want a good laugh at yourself. Hey, BTW, this is fun, but don't feel obliged to respond if this is starting to feel burdensome. Peace.
The opposite of burdensome actually. I’m totally with you about science. Good science, real science is exploratory and willing to accept a number of hypotheses at the same time. In fact, you could argue that exploring in that fashion is actually the job of science. And yes the data illusion. I see this often in news articles that throw out statistics like so much popcorn. Never mind asking the hard questions. Where does the data come from? What are the possible biases involved? What’s the margin of error? The numbers don’t lie we’re constantly told but they do and they can mislead us into a false sense of certainty. The precision they claim to have is arguably a good part of the epistemological crisis underway. As to quantum mechanics, I actually have jumped into this pool over the last year or so. Somehow I never quite got it before but after reading Barbara Hand Clow, it came into focus in a very interesting way in terms of spiritual practice. Now, more recently, I'm reading Ellen McCusick’s masterwork on biofield tuning and sound healing which draws heavily on quantum theory.
Just ordered the books, thanks. I recently applied for and was accepted into a two year program that leans heavily on alchemical iand quantum insights among other things. It starts this Friday. I'm psyched. Thank god for Zoom. I was involved for awhile with hands on healing and Reiki, but didn't think it was something I wanted to make central in my practice. The Moghul Sufi order I study with makes much of sound/vibratory healing. So I guess I'm coming back around to stuff I used to suspect as being 'woo-woo.' Even though palable things happened when I put my hands into someone's energy field. This actually frightened me a little. My self concept, like maybe all of my other concepts, could use some renovation.
Creating change of this magnitude in our economic systems would require a quantum shift in mass consciousness, and we're not there yet. In the meantime, I believe our capitalist system can work, better serving the whole of society and not just a select few - with the proper controls. If corporations and oligarchs, for example, were required to pay just 15% more taxes, and that 15% subsidized social programs, the social impact would be enormous. If healthcare was more tightly regulated and aligned more with underlying costs than the current price gouging, the impact would also be significant. These are just two of many examples. There is nothing revolutionary or groundbreaking about this, but it has yet to be executed. This, of course, presupposes that we have a government that truly represents the betterment of the whole and doesn't succumb to the Big Money.
Thank you so much for this Daniel. Feels so necessary as a counterweight to the reporting on the ongoing catastrophes. There is another shore.
I really needed this today.
These are useful proposals. Daniel, but I think it's wholesomely human to desire property to own, beginning with clothing and shelter. Earnings from endeavor should also belong to the endeavorer. I favor a minimum endowment at birth of shelter, sustenance, health care, education, and income. You're going to have folks up in arms, and not just the feudalists, if you try to deny property rights across the board.
I like that the etymology has utopia meaning 'nowhere' or 'not place' because thats what it is.